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Walter Haugen's avatar

For some time now, I have been promoting hypercomplexity in my comments on the Web, my books and my own Substack. Those who read my writings know this. I have gotten some pushback as well as arguments from the troll populace, but it is still to my advantage to make this delineation, something B does not do yet. YET! He may get there soon enough since he is an astute analyst and is able to follow where his own argument leads.

In a nutshell, the US and UK are not just complex societies; they are hypercomplex in their growth economies, which also translates into their societal functions. This is based on the acceleration of acceleration of their growth models (the third derivative, or "jerk" in calculus parlance) and comes from the NECESSITY to go faster and faster just to stay in place on a treadmill that is not just increasing in speed, but actually rising in its incline, so the speed at which the economy and society in general is moving needs to constantly accelerate its acceleration. Other countries, like France and Germany are accelerating their growth economies but not increasing their acceleration. In fact, they are contracting AND they seem to be managing their contraction. (And yes they could do a better job of it. C'est la vie.

The US and UK need everyone to not only consumer more and work more, but also increase their consumption and work at a constantly increasing pace. This argues against their ability to work within any form of limits and manage their coming contraction. Therefore they will just crash.

I have mixed feelings about the analogy of an economy or a society to an individual organism. It is well known in the study of ancient cultures that people just vote with their feet rather than go down with the ship. Also, the autophagy example is suspect too, as autophagy is a regular process that eats up the depleted cells and the toxins that have been freed. In B's analogy, the autophagy process eats up everyone.

In real terms, we just don't know how this collapse will play out beyond some broad strokes. The best adaptation is to be adaptable. Since industrial agriculture depends heavily on globalized phosphorus reserves that require control of source, plus massive amounts of fossil fuels to build the tractors and combines, plus massive amounts of fossil fuels to manufacture fertilizer, plus massive amounts of fossil fuels in production and transport, it is unlikely that die-off can be put off in any appreciable manner. In other words, as many of us have been saying for sometime; it is not a question of IF there is a die-off. It is a question of WHEN. Then it is all a crap shoot and no amount of airy-fairy design work will see you through. You will have to adapt to survive.

What I and many other sustainable farmer types have been doing for some years is developing alternate strategies. These can be tested right now AND they actually provide a favorable EROI for food production. It is not a question of whether it is sustainable in some rarified academic treatise; it is a question of how many people we can save now and in the future.

I get a lot of flack from computer jockeys who want to argue about what sustainable means or if agriculture is "bad" or some other bullshit. What I work on is growing potatoes, beans, wheat, etc. with lowered energy inputs. Once you get on that particular train, you have more places to jump off before the train goes over the cliff.

Anopheles's avatar

Observation about the unsustainable push for renewable energy. It has been mentioned that building out renewable energy infrastructure consumes vast resources and we don’t have enough energy nor resources to fully transition to renewables. Now, consider that every piece of that renewable energy generation will need complete replacement within 50 years.

If renewable energy can’t be built out once, then how will it be completely replaced every 50 years? And don’t say it will be “recycled”. Some of the metals will be recycled, but even that takes energy. Solar panels can’t be recycled, nor can wind turbine blades, etc. Realistically, just a tiny percentage of the energy and resources which went into building that renewable infrastructure will carry forward to its replacement.

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